[Anteis]

Sur fonds Nicot

Amitraz par évaporation

sur 7 colonies traitées comme les autres trois fois (fin traitement 08 août)

Résultat après 24 heures : 2 varroas pour 7 colonies.

Nouveau test sur 10 ruches demain, résultats dimanche.

[bval]

Bonjour,

J’envisage de traiter mes colonies avec Hiveclean exclusivement dès la récolte faite (semaine prochaine) avec trois passage (un passage semaine).
A votre avis, aucun autre traitement (apivar etc.) n’est nécessaire ?

Merci !

[Anteis]

Bonjour,

aucun autre test ne sera nécessaire pour moi ……… si l’amitraz me le prouve après les contre tests…..

[bval]

Bonjour,

Quel est le résultat du contre test de dimanche, sur traitement Hiveclean ?
A votre avis, est-il possible de faire confiance à l’efficacité de ce traitement, en utilisation exclusive ?

Merci et bonne journée.

Bval

[Anteis]

J’ai effectué le contre test d’une manière différente.
Après y avoir pensé, je me suis dit que le taktic par évaporation ne devait pas être la meilleure solution, même si le temps s’y prêtait bien.

J’ai donc posé des cartons + Taktic sur la tête des cadres.

Là, les reliquats sont tombés.

Les ruches ayany donné 0 varroa par évaporation Taktic ont donné de 15 à 18 varroas après 24 heures.(carton+Taktic sur tête des cadres)

Les ruches ayant donné 1 varroa par évaporation taktic ont donné de 30 à 50 varroas après 24 heures (carton+Taktic sur tête des cadres)

Résultat : inquiétude. logique.

J’ai contacté Constantin Dobrescu hier pour lui en parler. C’est un des responsables du protocole. Comme je le pensais, la première année, j’insiste sur première année, il faut prolonger le traitement sur six semaines au lieu de 3.
Ne pas augmenter les doses du produit. Dobrescu m’a bien confirmé qu’il faut se limiter à 15 ml/ruche, même sur les très très fortes colonies qui ont du couvai partout.

Ce qui a été constaté la première année de traitement : chutes importantes au printemps, augmentation du taux de varroas en saison, régulation en septembre après six semaines de traitement, reliquats traités 1 fois en décembre, chute des taux d’infestations la seconde année.

J’aurais dû demander pourquoi tout ceci ne figurait pas dans le protocole

Alors voilà. Il faut persévérer dans ses efforts la première année.

Je joins copie de l’échange avec Constantin Dobrescu qui date d’hier soir.

– or beevital works fine on small colonies and nothing else.
– or, the treatment period must be extended to six weeks + control.

The protocole says to treat 3 times more in September, but it’s too late at that time : too many winter bees were already affected by the varroas and the varroas …. kept on multiplying
[20/08/2012 21:29:53] Frank Paris: would I write to your mail?
[20/08/2012 21:30:09] cdobrescu: Hi Frank, I see you are still there
[20/08/2012 21:30:31] Frank Paris: yes, I’m online with my friend when I m in Belgium
[20/08/2012 21:30:54] cdobrescu: Do you have a headphone so we can talk?
[20/08/2012 21:31:23] Frank Paris: I am noy using a laptop here, but central unit, and no headphone along
[20/08/2012 21:31:30] Frank Paris: I know you hate writing
[20/08/2012 21:31:42] cdobrescu: I can cope with that…
[20/08/2012 21:32:13] cdobrescu: So, I did not understand entirely the chat with your friend.
[20/08/2012 21:32:51] cdobrescu: Are you refering to the 3 BeeVital treatments starting with end of July?
[20/08/2012 21:32:59] Frank Paris: I have treated 180 colonies here with the beevital, as forecasted, three weeks, from end July to early August
[20/08/2012 21:33:07] cdobrescu: OK
[20/08/2012 21:33:39] Frank Paris: but, I applied a counter test this week end with Taktic/amitraz, instead of waiting until September
[20/08/2012 21:33:53] Frank Paris: .and I guess I was right to do so.
[20/08/2012 21:34:07] Frank Paris: My colonies are pretty big
[20/08/2012 21:34:51] Frank Paris: After less than 24 hours, one colony dropped 100 varroas, another 80 and the average on the other colonies is 50+
[20/08/2012 21:35:22] cdobrescu: Did you also count the mitres fallen after the last BV HC treatment?
[20/08/2012 21:35:30] Frank Paris: and they are still falling right now. I’ll be curious to see how many will drop in the coming next days
[20/08/2012 21:35:31] cdobrescu: mites
[20/08/2012 21:36:02] Frank Paris: Yes, I did count, they were similar to what fell during the spring (mid February till first weel of March)
[20/08/2012 21:36:35] cdobrescu: Can you give me figures? 10, 20, 50,100/hive?
[20/08/2012 21:36:57] Frank Paris: Each hive dropped between 200 and 400 during the three weeks treatment
[20/08/2012 21:37:04] Frank Paris: total
[20/08/2012 21:37:15] Frank Paris: figures vary a lot from day to day
[20/08/2012 21:37:34] cdobrescu: Are you in the first year of treatment with BeeVital for these hives?
[20/08/2012 21:37:55] Frank Paris: yes. Till then I used Taktic only.
[20/08/2012 21:38:59] Frank Paris: But my problem was of another matter: if I didn’t counter test now, I would have had too many mites in September. Besides, 20/25 ml are not enough to treat the colonies now. The nests are huge
[20/08/2012 21:40:02] cdobrescu: Look, the quantity of BV HC/hive is not the crucial factor. In our experience 15 ml is enough for a large colony.
[20/08/2012 21:40:17] Frank Paris: Ok for the quantity
[20/08/2012 21:41:11] cdobrescu: The issue is that in the first year of using BV HC sometimes at these summer treatments the number of mites are constantly increasing from the first to the 3rd treatment.
[20/08/2012 21:41:37] cdobrescu: In this situation we recommend to continue with a 4th treatment after 1 week.
[20/08/2012 21:42:11] cdobrescu: If the number of falling mites is still high or even increasing you do a 5th one.
[20/08/2012 21:43:09] cdobrescu: We had once a situation that the number of falling mites started decreasing only at the 6th treatment and we did even a 7th one.
[20/08/2012 21:43:31] cdobrescu: I cannot explain why but this happens in the first year of BV HC.
[20/08/2012 21:43:50] cdobrescu: I suppose it is a cleansing process that has to be completed to reach a certain balance.
[20/08/2012 21:44:01] Frank Paris: well, it’s not enough or adapted to the carnica brood cycle here. The queens keep on laying eggs on full Dadant frames till the end of Spetember. If the mites multiply, then I will have a large rquantity of weaker bees to overwinter… that why during the conversation with my friend, I suggested that a full six weeks in a row were better than three only
[20/08/2012 21:45:04] cdobrescu: Normally next year 3 treatments are enough.
[20/08/2012 21:45:38] cdobrescu: I mean summer treatments, the one in December is a must!
[20/08/2012 21:46:04] Frank Paris: ok, anyway, I intended to use it again between February and March. My problem is my bees are not allowed to die or leave me weak colonies in the spring time. without them , I can’t eat
[20/08/2012 21:47:02] Frank Paris: The December treeatment will be applied on a few colonies only, the ones used for the tests and controls. I never bother the bees with any treatment of any kind before February
[20/08/2012 21:47:44] Frank Paris: so it will comfort me with my opinion , or not, about the December treatment when the fallen mites and spring time development will be appreciated
[20/08/2012 21:47:57] cdobrescu: In December you have only phoretic mites and a single application would knock them down very effectively.
[20/08/2012 21:48:47] cdobrescu: On the other hand this is the last chance to get rid of the wintering mites, eliminating most of them ensure a safe overwintering for the bees.
[20/08/2012 21:49:04] Frank Paris: yes, but the problem is, by disturbing the bees at a moment when, generally, they can’t go out, they will increase their food consumption, without being able to have a flight out
[20/08/2012 21:49:56] cdobrescu: OK, I hope that you will try at least on a few hives and compare them with the rest of your hives during the next year.
[20/08/2012 21:50:13] Frank Paris: Yes, that’s what I wrote abobe, I will
[20/08/2012 21:50:47] Frank Paris: many people treat with oxalic acid at that time, the process is the same, and the mites are always back
[20/08/2012 21:50:54] Frank Paris: but I will
[20/08/2012 21:51:23] cdobrescu: Have you already used Taktic on all your hives after BV HC?
[20/08/2012 21:52:16] Frank Paris: Yes, all of them but 10. When I saw 100 dead varroas, I sure had to react fast at a time when my bees are breeding winter bees
[20/08/2012 21:52:56] cdobrescu: Good. Can you continue with BV HC on the remaining 10 colonies as I described above?
[20/08/2012 21:53:14] Frank Paris: Yes, I will, otherwise we have no figures
[20/08/2012 21:53:22] cdobrescu: Great!
[20/08/2012 21:53:39] Frank Paris: 800 Euros for the queens if they die
[20/08/2012 21:53:49] Frank Paris: are you game?
[20/08/2012 21:53:53] Frank Paris:
[20/08/2012 21:54:03] cdobrescu: 80 euro/queen?
[20/08/2012 21:54:16] cdobrescu: Must be a of very good quality!
[20/08/2012 21:55:22] Frank Paris: now, what do you imagine? I am really working with high quality. Yes, 800 Euros, + 1.000 Euros (splitted colonies) + honey lost ….. you understand using beevital really means IT MUST fucking work
[20/08/2012 21:55:32] Frank Paris:
[20/08/2012 21:55:37] cdobrescu: I am actually pretty sure that BV HC cannot harm the queens more than amitraz.
[20/08/2012 21:56:00] Frank Paris: if you buy a really good colony from Singer, Austria, it goes up to 600 Euros
[20/08/2012 21:56:23] Frank Paris: no, but if the bees die, so do the queens
[20/08/2012 21:56:40] Frank Paris: and I never lost a queen from amitraz….
[20/08/2012 21:57:14] cdobrescu: Try to kill a colony by overdosing with BV HC and I pay the damage if you succeed!
[20/08/2012 21:57:33] Frank Paris: not the product, mites overdose
[20/08/2012 21:57:46] Frank Paris: that’s what I am worried about, Constantin, nothing else
[20/08/2012 21:59:06] cdobrescu: OK, let’s try and see. You can compare now the 10 colonies with the amitraz ones, it is a pitty you did not treat them in the same time to compare the average mite fall too.
[20/08/2012 22:00:47] cdobrescu: Of course you are aware that for BV HC you have to count the mites at least after 7 days because the effect is not as fast as for amitraz when in the first day there is a massive drop followed by few mites fallen after a 2-3 days.
[20/08/2012 22:01:29] Frank Paris: I noticed, here in Belgium, the beevital shows effects after 24/48 hours
[20/08/2012 22:01:40] Frank Paris: more often 48 hours
[20/08/2012 22:01:59] Frank Paris: counting every two days is easier than after a week, too dirty to see them all
[20/08/2012 22:02:32] Frank Paris: in Bg, I had to wait longer than in Belgium, but the bees there are a pain in the ass
[20/08/2012 22:02:50] cdobrescu: OK, important it is to add these figures and get to the right coinclusion regarding the effect of the treatment.
[20/08/2012 22:03:54] Frank Paris: yes, I know, that’s also why I am curious to know how long the amitraz destruction effect will last in the figures, it is highly important to have as few mites as possible now
[20/08/2012 22:04:16] Frank Paris: today’s egges are giving bees in September already
[20/08/2012 22:04:44] cdobrescu: Yes, August is almost gone…
[20/08/2012 22:05:00] Frank Paris: yes,
[20/08/2012 22:05:04] cdobrescu: Frank, I want to ask your opinion on an issue.
[20/08/2012 22:05:21] Frank Paris: davai
[20/08/2012 22:05:29] cdobrescu: I want to take 10 hives for wintering in Greece.
[20/08/2012 22:06:18] cdobrescu: I just want to test if I can get an early building up there to have an early start in Romania afterwards.
[20/08/2012 22:06:25] Frank Paris: they will die hungry there
[20/08/2012 22:07:02 | Modifié (22:07:26)] Frank Paris: your problem if your colonies start early in Greece is the pollen supply when they are back to Romania
[20/08/2012 22:07:21] cdobrescu: Come on! Euro currency and beekeeping have nothing in common!
[20/08/2012 22:07:42] Frank Paris: no, I was joking about their crisis
[20/08/2012 22:07:50] cdobrescu: me too
[20/08/2012 22:08:13] Frank Paris: if your colonies start early in Greece, you have to have pollen and enough food at the moment you move themback to Romainia
[20/08/2012 22:08:39] Frank Paris: Many French peole move their colonies to the south of the country so they have warmer winters
[20/08/2012 22:09:03] Frank Paris: but I don’t see the need for it. You need bees that start foraging early
[20/08/2012 22:09:12] Frank Paris: the only one that does it is carnica
[20/08/2012 22:09:38] Frank Paris: My carnicas in Belgium start collecting pollen in January
[20/08/2012 22:09:49] Frank Paris: then explode on pollen in March
[20/08/2012 22:10:07] Frank Paris: on the 1st of April I put the supers for the honey and nest development
[20/08/2012 22:10:41] cdobrescu: This is also a part of my small experiment, I shall take there Carpathica, Carnica and Buckfast and compare.
[20/08/2012 22:10:56] Frank Paris: If you work with mellifera mellifera, caucasica or another race, they always start much later
[20/08/2012 22:11:46] Frank Paris: Buckfast is a shame. Genetically, it is no bee, you will bring pollution. If your winters are cold, they will die. If they are high above see level, they will die
[20/08/2012 22:12:10] Frank Paris: Carpathica : we have something similar in Bulgaria, damned lazy bees
[20/08/2012 22:12:22] Frank Paris: the brood develops too slowly
[20/08/2012 22:12:41] Frank Paris: and they prefer tostore in the hive itself rather than in the supers
[20/08/2012 22:12:58] Frank Paris: so your queen has problems while trying to lay eggs
[20/08/2012 22:14:12] cdobrescu: Yes, carpathica the same, you have to be very carefull, they easily block the nest box and block all the cells.
[20/08/2012 22:14:38] Frank Paris: you need places with a lot of hazels and salix caprea
[20/08/2012 22:14:51] cdobrescu: You mean in Greece?
[20/08/2012 22:14:56] Frank Paris: that’s why I want carnicas only.
[20/08/2012 22:15:34] Frank Paris: I don’t know what kind of pollen they have early in season in Greece, but if you want big nests in Romania, you need such places
[20/08/2012 22:15:55] cdobrescu: OK.
[20/08/2012 22:16:29] Frank Paris: I also have a large apiary for black bees and an absolutally perfect mating station for them
[20/08/2012 22:16:50] Frank Paris: they forage as soon as the carnicas, but the brood develops slower
[20/08/2012 22:17:20] cdobrescu: I shall want to buy some Carnica queens from you next year.
[20/08/2012 22:17:53] Frank Paris: ok, but don’t expect them before late June. I only sell queens when I see what kind of bees they can make
[20/08/2012 22:18:12] Frank Paris: in short : I control how good they mated
[20/08/2012 22:18:36] cdobrescu: OK, put me on your waiting list with 5 queens, please.
[20/08/2012 22:18:46] Frank Paris: ok
[20/08/2012 22:19:02] Frank Paris: you can go to http://www.apis-mellifera-carnica.com
[20/08/2012 22:19:13] Frank Paris: you’ll find the document to fil there
[20/08/2012 22:19:25] Frank Paris: it’s safer for you so I remember about you
[20/08/2012 22:20:01] Frank Paris: but remember : hazels and salix caprea or equivalent in your area if you want the nests to develop fast
[20/08/2012 22:20:40] cdobrescu: I have my apiary in the vecinity of a forest, plenty of early pollen.
[20/08/2012 22:20:49] Frank Paris: plus, the carnicas early in the season are not afrais of the cold and the rain, they go to work
[20/08/2012 22:20:57] Frank Paris: great !
[20/08/2012 22:21:17] Frank Paris: they destroyed those trees a bit everywhere in Bg
[20/08/2012 22:22:32] Frank Paris: when you introduce the new queens, make a bee packet, without brood at all. They will be forced to accept the queens, 100% successful
[20/08/2012 22:23:43] Frank Paris: If you wish deeper informations about the carnicas or black bees, feel free to ask, I’ll be glad to answer
[20/08/2012 22:24:44] cdobrescu: is bee packet=package bees? You mean start from 1.2-1.5 kk bees + new queen + 5 frames with bare foundation?
[20/08/2012 22:24:50] cdobrescu: kg
[20/08/2012 22:26:57] Frank Paris: not so much : jus shake two frames of young bees and one with bees standing on honey, they will protect the new colony. Spray water on them, shake in a six frame hive, put three empty frames inside or let them buil. Feed at will, 1 kg a day. Next day, your queen should be free and walking on the frames.
[20/08/2012 22:27:13] Frank Paris: the smaller the colony, the better it is.
[20/08/2012 22:27:28] Frank Paris: one week later, add on frame with closed brood
[20/08/2012 22:27:42] Frank Paris: a second frame one week later
[20/08/2012 22:27:51] Frank Paris: the colony will grow fast
[20/08/2012 22:28:09 | Modifié (22:28:23)] Frank Paris: and your queen is safe
[20/08/2012 22:30:14] cdobrescu: OK, I see, we are talking about the normal splitting. The idea is to start from comb with no brood, the acceptance of the queen is safer in this way.
[20/08/2012 22:30:59] Frank Paris: right
[20/08/2012 22:31:17] Frank Paris: with virgin queens the process is quite different
[20/08/2012 22:31:31] Frank Paris: but with mated queens it is the only safe way
[20/08/2012 22:31:34] Frank Paris: and too easy
[20/08/2012 22:32:54] cdobrescu: Thank you for advice. So, let us talk again when you have a clearer image with BeeVital, I am also curious to find out your conclusions!
[20/08/2012 22:33:14] Frank Paris: I hope they will be good.
[20/08/2012 22:33:39] Frank Paris: would be fine to have an easy product and not too …. dirty
[20/08/2012 22:33:52] cdobrescu: Right
[20/08/2012 22:34:01] Frank Paris: and at least, the apiaries smell good !
[20/08/2012 22:34:50] Frank Paris: xaide, priatna vecher ti jelaia, shte se vidim pak v Balgaria
[20/08/2012 22:34:50] cdobrescu: Yes, I was also thinking to enter the perfumes for beekeeping trade.
[20/08/2012 22:35:00] Frank Paris: perfumes?
[20/08/2012 22:35:06] Frank Paris: ha ! good idea !
[20/08/2012 22:35:14] cdobrescu: as far as it smells good…
[20/08/2012 22:35:20] cdobrescu: Noapte buna!
[20/08/2012 22:35:29] Frank Paris:
[20/08/2012 22:35:46] Frank Paris: Romanian only looks close to French, but is not !
[20/08/2012 22:36:01] cdobrescu: That’s for sure.
[20/08/2012 22:36:07] Frank Paris: yes !
[20/08/2012 22:36:17] Frank Paris: we’ll meet again in Bg I suppose
[20/08/2012 22:36:35] Frank Paris: and in Ukraine next year
[20/08/2012 22:36:49] cdobrescu: OK, until then see you soon on skype.
[20/08/2012 22:37:04] Frank Paris: yes, after all treatments were applied
[20/08/2012 22:37:27] Frank Paris: allez, bonne nuit en Roumanie!
[20/08/2012 22:37:30] cdobrescu: Bone nuit.
[20/08/2012 22:37:48] Frank Paris: à bientôt, Constantin.

[GreenHornet]

Achetez des souche a 600euros et pas sortir une goutte de miel ou bien passer sont temps a lutter contre l’essaimage et nourrir de A à Z
faut étre naif et très gentil
Tien! y en a 200 de volatiliser

[blaireaudesbois]

Tu devrais te reposer un peu. Ca se sent que tu en as besoin.

[blaireaudesbois]

Chef, chef, il y a un problème sur le forum. Il fait des fautes exprés.

[cannamiel]

je vais vendre les mienne a 7500 euros
dommage que la belgique soit un si petit pays,je serais multi milliardaire

[blaireaudesbois]

Monsieur le modérateur, il semble y avoir un dysfonctionnement sur ce sujet.
En effet, lorsqu’on poste une réponse, l’ordinateur fait automatiquement une traduction ordinateur du français ( correct ) au … français ( trés mauvais ).

[cannamiel]

les plus courte sont les meilleur
il a de serrieux soucis et on passe tous par là un jour ou un autre,le tout est d’en tiré les bonne conclusion

[GreenHornet]

Alors,pas terrible le hiveclean!?
beaucoup de chutes au contre test?
100 de tomber sa représente combien encore présent dans la ruche?

[Anteis]

Bonjour,
je ne comprends rien aux commentaires ci-dessus.
S’il se trouve quelques fameux ecrivains ici qui ne connaissent pas la maitrise de la carnica chez Singer, je regrette pour eux.
Un eleveur n’a pas les memes besoins en qualite genetique qu’un apiculteur oriente miel.
Par contre, je leur souhaite de tout coeur d’acquerir l’experience Singer.
Les colonies qui semblent hors de prix sont suivies sur trois annees completes et ne servent qu’a la production de reines. C’est un peu comme comparer une Citroen bas de gamme avec une Ferrari.
Avant de s’effaroucher, il faut savoir de quoi on parle, c’est plus simple.
Voila pour Singer.

Le beevital : comme explique par C. Dobrescu, durant la premiere annee, et premiere annee seulement, il est nnecessaire de faire le traitement six semaines consecutives en ete, de fin juillet a mi-septembre.
Je leur reprochais juste de ne pas avoir fait cette remarque dans leur protocole. L’experience se poursuit donc.

Que les chutes aient ete spectaculaires apres l’application du Taktic, c’est normal: ce ne sont plus les abeilles qui travaillent a l’elimination des varroas, mais bien l’amitraz qui lessive les reliquats, parfois importants, que le beevital aurait du eliminer par la suite.

Je sais que nous sommes quelques-uns en Belgique a suivre le protocole cette annee, il semblerait que je sois le seul a bien vouloir faire un retour sur le sujet ici.

[GreenHornet]

Comparer une machine a coudre a une bagnole de course ,faut oser.
c’est pour le fun,prié de pas se vexer
non,serieux ils vendent des souche a 600e?

[Anteis]

non, on tourne autour des 400 Euros pour une colonie sur cinq/six cadres, testee sur trois annees. Le travail de la famille Singer est remarquable. Tout comme celui de nombreux eleveurs autrichiens.
Contre exemple, la publicite tapageuse autour des carnica slovenes qui, par comparaison, ne valent rien du tout. Je les ai testees, j’ai detruit les reines.

Je voulais juste pousser C. Dobrescu un peu pour garantir l’efficacite du produit.